OK, I have to blog this! The situation in the decency argument occured when T offered up a hypothetical situation following on from whether Samurai should be allowed to judge people:
"How would such rules of decency stand on issues such as there being 3 friends, 7 biscuits, a "betrayal of trust", and an uneven distribution of said biscuits. Should any hurt parties (who maybe feel a bit
sad/angry) by some means deal "justice" out because somepeople were not paying attention to the division of biscuits? From what I gathered such rules require punishment?"
Unfortunately I've obviously missed some of the argument, because I've just got this apparently the samurai with the greatest honour is awarded the biscuit:
"> (T) What a day off again!!! You lucky sod you!
(Eye) No no no, I am just not working, which is different...... :)
> (T) I like many of the Bushido ways fo considering things... but as I said I do think it is perfect...
(Eye) That is very true and I agree. The interest is in the fact they still had a system BASED on the correct set of values but messed up by humans. Our current system is based on all the wrong things.
> (T) Provided there is a Samurai there with greatest honor...
(Eye) There always is. If they are honest to themselves......
> (T) What if there isnt? Or there is a disagreement? In truth there is always one... he is the one with the greatest power over the others. You can call it honor if you want.... or you can call it money, faith, resources, whatever you want... but at the end of the day they are placeholders for the word power...
(Eye) What you describe is the currupting of the system i.e. my example below. One is power hungry (the corrupt scummer) and grabs the biscuit, however ..... if he is the Master of the house then there is little you can do but 'be the roots of the tree' as our man Yamamoto put it. It is every Samurais duty to do as such. It is also observed that most do not or don't understand this. As you say ... its not perfect....
> (T) Different philosphies may have other aspects, but when any of them is brought down to the human world and put in the hands of man the word you need to use words like power, and hierachy.
(Eye) Yes, thats the corruption of the system I was describing. I think its better to talk of a non-Samurai as one not following the proper belief system and philosophy, not just a bod in the street. The Hagakure talks of people dressed as Samurai, calling themselves Samurai but a big part of the book is to tell you why they are not Samurai so the situation still falls apart if one of the 'Samurai' is of the corrupt party.
> (T) Again in the philosphy that does not exist -- possibly yes.
(Eye) Oh but it does exist. Giving up on that is much more dangerous than giving up on majority of people being decent.
> (T) The Saumrai had rituals for such things as drinking tea, but in reality this sounds like the standard mechanism to make those at the bottom keep quiet and shut up.
(Eye) Yes, there are some funny things in there. Some of them I see a point to, others I think are the corruption creeping in again..... there is a level of Samurai culture and philosophy which is used to live correctly, there is another level used to control.... tut tut tut ....
> (T) Notice immiediatley that there has to be some leader Samurai sitting there telling everyone else which people are the samurai and what honor level they are at. They also determine which are non-decent "corrupt scummers actually called the Ainu -- "Untouchables" in feudal Japan! . Hence, immiediatly any of those "Samurai" who may have concerns about the biscuit division process say nothing, because they scared of being a non-samurai / ronnin / ainu scummers - so they do not say anything and maintain the status quo. The most honoured Samurai is then sorted... surely this is the same as all the things you hate Eye?
(Eye) You are correct, that is exactly what I dislike. This is what I was saying that the same corruption, the same corrupt people with the same ideas are dogging our system just like they did the Samurai. The difference being the core of Samurai beliefs are good ....... our system ........... oh dear ..............
> (T) What I would consider in your Samurai example is how to judge which of the people had the greatest honor? In the Samurai system it is most likely the highest memeber of Clan present - so bascially familly related - fairly simple; If people are honest to themselves it is easy, even if there is no difference at all, then a turn or division process can be applied, but would mostly not be required I think.
>The fourth step is of course threaten and unbalance people at the bottom somehow: normally to try and make them feel small, but most of all scared. Scared that the scraps will be taken away from them and infact leaving with with nothing.
(Eye) This is another point where the Samurai system is strong. It doesn't allow for that kind of weakness. If the scraps are taken away then so be it, you died facing the enemy which is the right way to go.
> (T) Nearly all systems are twisted and corrupted so those at the top can enforce their survival of the fittest pecking order on the other. Even in organised Buddhism you get the "I deserve to be poor and live in poverty because I was bad in my last life".
(Eye) Yep, I agree.
> (T) So essentially it is about power, peers, and pecking order. For me thats about it...
(Eye) Thats what we are discussing I suppose and my angle was that "The majority of humans are trying to get more power, peers and a pecking order below them". You said that the minority were like that which I don't agree with.
> (Eye) Anyways, my arguments were based on trying to ascertain the true character of oneself to see the decency in others.
(T) You always have to be a sure as possible about your own position.
(Eye) Is that an agreement?
(T) A re-wording. "One has to be as sure as possible about ones position all of the time" to be all posh about it....... (I might have got this last bit the wrong way round)"
..and so on... so we might have learned something after all...
