Skip The Budgie

So an experiment to see if it's possible to replicate an email discussion on a blog - following on from yesterday's story, complete with typos... original reply is in green:

> (me) That's outrageous, isn't it?
THIS is what our 'developed' world does do more juvenile wannabe countries.

>>(T) If this is true it is indirectly so. It is the sovreign goverment who in this case directly is withdrawing the water supply. It is an internal matter.

>>>(me) But the idea of Government and the way that this government and others in Africa are run, are influenced by what we (as a society) created, which makes them want to withdraw support for Bushmen (who don't want / shouldn't need this support anyway) because of the same things that make Gypsies in Europe unwanted. All the bushmen want is to be left alone and that's not going to happen, because of the arrogance of people who think they know better.

It may be an internal matter, but that attitude implies that you think we should not even be trying to have this discussion. It is a global problem. cultures and societies are being destroyed.

>>>> (T) Well, it does look a bit like that, but that was not my intention, sozzers... I was merely pointing out that from the information known to me (the article!), this is internal, and in this case not a foreign power/multinational directly influencing internal state issues as usually appers to be the case. The definition of the sovreign state and the powers it holds are important in these situations... unless you want to discuss anrachy (in its true sense) as a form of "goverment" in which there is no discernible group where policies are made on the behalf of the group as a whole. Itis the natur eof all these problems I think. It is hard to be independant of nay system, because as soon as you form a separate group, it will still create a relationship between the two groups. The homeless ofr example, theoretically are "outside soceity", but obviously still an issue of soceity.

>>>>> (me) Many are not homeless by choice, an issue in that they are a result of it. A complex issue, there can be a million reasons why a person is homeless and they are in no way outside society because they want to be in it, it has just discarded them so they've become a problem.

I see what you mean by internal now :), but I will argue that the power structure itself is foreign.>

> (me) They are being forced to live in our system, they are trying to copy our way of working, and the funny thing is, our media makes out we disapprove!

>> (T) "Ours" by means that we "invented/instigated" it... but abstract ideas that form most things in our modern world theoretically belong to humankind in general. For example, the evil of Nazi Germany was not invented by Germany or inherant only in Germans; it is something inherent in all human peoples, and a warning to all people of what humankind in general is capable of. The same is true of the current system.

>>> (me) The lessons of Nazi Germany have NOT been learned by anyone other than the Germans, and across Africa the same situation is being repeated due to their infancy in adopting our easily corruptable system of government, ownership and the pretence of knowing what is best for each other, which is propagated by our apathy and desire to keep the continent poor so that when the need comes we can leech their resources and do an 'Iraq' again whenever we so desire.

>>> You agree that there is a difference between 'developed' and 'undeveloped' world? I believe that these terms are ridiculous and as nations we are deliberately allowing these systems to be corrupted. The situation with the bushmen is just an example of what has happened across the planet, as the 'system' takes over and rips up people's lives. Did the native Americans benefit from it?

>>>> (T) Wewl... some sorts of compromises are needed arnt they? They should not kick off the doodes from their way of life... those who want to be part of "the system" should bear the supposed "cost" of supporting the needs of the bushman... there should be room for both ways of doing things, it is just that our system is uncomprimising in its definitions of profit/loss and the self exhaustive need to support constant profit makes it impossible. I dont hate everything about our system, I wish we could only somehow restrain all the bad aspects it using our intellect instead of letting it run amok like some dumb scared animal... :(

>>>>> (me) That's kinda true, but the bushmen have been slowly forced to rely on a system which they have never needed before. It is arguable whether 'education' and healthcare would be beneficial. Why give people something they don't want? I don't see anything where they say they want anything except to be left alone.

>> (T) Of course we dissaprove!!! Most people are "decent" to varying levels even though they live within "the system"...

>>> (me) Admittedly it would be hypocritical of us to try and stop them. I just think it's ironic that we read this stuff, tut to ourselves and don't even think about why it's happening, where it started and how to stop it. BECAUSE of the inescapable 'system'.

>>>> (T) Yes... I agree... but I dont want to be a politician, and I know I would not be suited to it, I need someone to represent me... One of the main reasons our democracy is currently not working well, is not because of its basic principles are unsound, but because there is not a party that represents and tries to implement what we want in power.

>>>>> (me) true...

> (me) Shows how sensitive we are to culture, and why in many ways Communist China is a good thing (er... do I mean that?)

>> (T) I dont know which aspects of "Communist" China you mean. The cultural reveloution, or the brain washing in their education system (although we have that too...). Are you aware of the levels and depth of corruption in China? They make multinational influence look reasonable in comparisson. The principle of imprisonment without trial or justification is as wrong as what the Americans are upto in Guantanomo Bay... I am not sure what you mean by this...

>>> (me) It's a 'good' thing because it is different. Because it is based on history. Africa is still a tribal continent, it should have a society developed from it's own history, not our invasions. I'm not saying it would be better or worse, but the would have more respect for their people that way. China has too many problems. BUt we are too f*cked ourselves to be able to say how the rest of the world should be fixed. Hence Guantanamo Bay. It is insane arrogance that we think we know better than any other country and think that we can enforce our flawed ideals onto other people.

>>>> (T) I am not sure about that. In many ways I believe in some Universals, like not castrating young children, and equality between all people... I think these universal should be evident accross the world... inside that framework I believe internal cultures will always be present in how people locally express themselves.

>>>>> (me) Yeah, look at Pitcairn Island and it's morals. I just don't think we are in a position to judge...

>>> (me) I mean, their society has developed from their history, but in Africa, their adoption of our societal (word?) formula is deleting their culture. And it does begin to look like there's nowhere to hide...

>>>> (T) I believe cultures are essentially mallable, "tradition" is essentially arguable... besides, many aspects of "the system" can be advantageous... I am not against: clean water, non-poeverty, good healthcare and education for everyone for example. I think this should be available to all.

>>>>> (me) Why is the water dirty?
What is poverty?
Why are we unhealthy? As we discussed yesterday, healthcare is not expensive, and it doesn't rely on our system to work, in fact, it suffers from it, which is why there is a charity to help try and cure cancer. Education would be good, were it not based on making people unhappy with their lives. And the majority are not advantageous.

>>>>>> (T) Wouldnt healthcare and education then be against the natural ways of the African bushmen? Or do they accept some parts of "the system" that they like; and then refuse the others?

>>>>>>> (me) See above... it is against their natural ways, but they have their own health care and their own education. Why should anyone change that?

>>>>>>>> (T) Some healthcare is very expensive... new drug design and manufacture is very very pricey... It is not cost of churning out the medicine, but the cost of researching it. I think the goveremnts should pay for it, but unforuntately the way we do things at the mo, it is the end consumer... hence if they are poor they are in trouble... Now that is a serious problem with the way we do things... The whole point for me is that somethings should be privatised in my opinion (PS2s, teles, computers, cars, etc), and other things shouldnt (Education, Healthcare, basic housing, food, and water).

>>>>>>>>> (me) hmmm yeah. Why is basic housing important? tents are adequate, give me a tent and a fire...

>>>>>>>> (T)The problem in this case in that the tribal people want to continue their way of life, and that is at odds with the goverment, who are removing their water supply to force them to relocate (which is evil)...

This article does not say whether it is at odd with the rest of the countries populace however...

>>>>>>>>> (me) I reckon the government, like every government is at odds with the country's populace. You have to watch 'The Gods Must Be Crazy' It is about exactly this problem. The bushmen do not want or desire any outside influence. This has already happened. Their small society is based on entirely different ideals and because the 'new' democratic society believes that 'people' belong in shanty towns and deserve to be forced to have substandard health care in a disease-ridden environment which is entirely at odds with a basic more healthy natural lifestyle ou tin the bush we have the cheek to say that we're doing what's best for them? They were happy, now they are being destroyed? Do I need to say Native Americans again?

We have learned NOTHING from our history if you think this is OK.

>>>>>>>>>> (T) Well I agree with that in general, but I think the definition of countries and groups is difficult as mentioned above.

I agree/disagree with the fact that we have learnt nothing... I think some people have learnt alot... the problem is implementing what we have learnt because we cannot or have not learnt how to control the system (mother nature).

>>>>>>>>>>> (me) We should not try to control it. Like Iv said yesterday we are so much a part of nature we probably do need to evolve as a species to get beyond our basic instincts and move to a more cerebral way of life....